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1. Posted by Kay Sieverding - 1 month, 1 week, 6 days, 23 hours, 17 minutes ago

   Even normal jailing of U.S. citizens involves a lot of humiliation even of people such as myself who weren’t even accused of a crime or contempt in the presence of the court.  American Jurisprudence lists jail standards but I was held in Georgetown CO county jail for over 4 months (without charges). That facility holds about 40% federal prisoners some for 18 months. I was held for a while in a cell that was about 7 by 8 feet and contained three people. There was a bunk bed and the 3rd person slept on the floor.  This was a basement facility so there was no sunlight and the fluorescent lights were on almost all the time.  During the winter, there was no outside yard. There were no radios, which American Jurisprudence says is required.  We were pat down searched every time we went in or out.  A woman that I met there was transferred to another county jail and she wrote that she was in solitary 23 hours a day.  She was accused, (not convicted), of being married to a drug dealer.  Some other people in this facility were there for minor offenses such as failure to renew automobile registration.  Later I was held at Dane County WI jail for three weeks without charges.  The food was really awful there but the women were fighting over food.  If you wanted to go to church services you were pat down searched. Again some people were held for a long time but there was no gym or yard.  I heard, but cannot prove, that women in Denver County Jail are required to prove that they are menstruating before they can get supplies. And everyone has heard about the toilets in the middle of the room.

   What about the 9th Circuit ruling about the 13 year old honor student who was strip searched on the charge that she might possess prescription strength Ibuprofen?

   They say that rape is a about power. So obviously are many of today’s jail management tactics.  What I can’t understand is why with computers being so cheap, there aren’t major education campaigns in all detention facilities. Translated to GITMO, there was an opportunity there to educate the prisoners on the value of democracy.  A lot of money was spent there. They could have shown the prisoners why and how the U.S. is a good country and maybe they would have responded by reporting useful information.

   GITMO prisoners were reportedly considering suicide Once a person reaches that point then martyrdom becomes more appealing and people become radicalized, I think.

2. Posted by J.D. - 1 month, 1 week, 6 days, 20 hours, 18 minutes ago

   The only effect stripping down to his underwear has is the illustration of the ridiculousness of his claims. If he, an innocent person, can WILLFULLY drop trou in a public environment without “mental distress” then surely battlefield-hardened prisoner suspected of terrorist acts can handle it.

   Much ado about nothing.

3. Posted by anonymous - 1 month, 1 week, 6 days, 12 hours, 22 minutes ago

   I don’t see how that follows. The lawyer was getting paid, was in control, and has a good body. The prisoners are powerless and the searches show that they are powerless. Plus they were pointless since the prisoners had no way to get any contraband in just a few hours.  I was in jail and everyone there dreaded being searched and handled.

4. Posted by Bill Dickey - 1 month, 1 week, 5 days, 5 hours, 29 minutes ago

   Who gives a rat’s pitoot about this?  I can’t tell which I care less about--some jerk from a big law firm who pulls his pants down to make headlines (albeit in this publication) or the troublemaking scum at Guanatmomo who would slit our throats if we turned our backs on them.  Life is ugly and tough. What we really need are better distractions to provide a well desreved break from our rough lives.  I suggest we start by finding and publicizing interesting articles about the good things out there in life, not these losers!

5. Posted by Mick - 1 month, 1 week, 5 days, 4 hours, 58 minutes ago

   Bill, excellent satire!

6. Posted by Chris - 1 month, 1 week, 5 days, 3 hours, 59 minutes ago

   Good point, J.D. I hadn’t thought about it like that. My take was awhile back all we heard about was torture and waterboarding and stuff like that at GITMO. Things must have changed a lot since then if detainee counsel are now relegated to complaining about “corn-fed” military personnel - gasp! - checking suspected Islamic extremists for weapons. How dare they!!!

7. Posted by silencedogood - 1 month, 1 week, 5 days, 3 hours, 22 minutes ago

   Why was he doing this type of stunt in Yemen?  Criticism is fine, even if it is over-the-top showboating, but keep it at home.

8. Posted by MEJ - 1 month, 1 week, 5 days, 3 hours, 12 minutes ago

   Must we handle things within the constraints of what the judiciary tells us?  Yes.  However, it is highly presumptuous for any lawyer to suggest that he knows better than a trained military servicemember how to handle detainees in a wartime setting.  As lawyers, we specialize in looking at things in hindsight and we are seated comfortably atop our white horses.  The only men and women who truly have to look over their shoulders every day in Cuba are the ones running these facilities.  Not only do they have to look out for the prisoners, but also the politicians and those of us at home who fail to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are perhaps not sadistic people who enjoy inflicting pain, but rather decent people trying to handle impossible ideology that manifests itself through the destruction of skyscrapers, planes and innocent civilians.  To David Remes, I say, “Get bent, you pompous, self-serving narcissist!”

9. Posted by Anon - 1 month, 1 week, 5 days, 2 hours, 27 minutes ago

   Comment #1—???  I can only imagine the rantings of torture if the US started shoving “WE ARE GOOD” down those particular prisoners’ throats. 
   Prisoners don’t like to be searched or ‘handled?’ I am sure they don’t like being confined, either - but, that does not mean I am going to jump on any “free the accused” band-wagon.  Treat people like people, yes - but I agree - “corn-fed military” folk need to conduct these searches, and watch their backs.  It’s not your neighborhood county jail, where folks are accused of not registering their vehicles, for pete’s sake!

10. Posted by Joe Herrick - 1 month, 1 week, 5 days, 1 hour, 41 minutes ago

    This Covington lawyer is a disgrace.  The U.S. Military has learned several valuable lessons from running detention centers in the Middle East and GITMO. One of these lessons is that detainees must be searched frequently and thoroughly.  “Off-limits” areas are a recipe for disaster.  A mosque tent was off-limits to U.S. personnel, and Iraqi detainees turned it into a weapons cache and jail-break tunnel a la “The Great Escape.” Iraqi detainees managed to fight for four days before the military regained control of the facility.  Similarly, too much freedom at GITMO led to a violent uprising by detainees presumed to be “less threatening.” This jerk of a lawyer is now complaining that a GITMO detainee must have his waste band searched?  If I were the detainee, I would request more competent counsel.  But maybe this is just a set-up for an appeal.

11. Posted by Diamond Jim - 1 month, 1 week, 5 days, 1 hour, 37 minutes ago

    Nothing like a good torture story to bring out the lefty whiners. 9/11 is now a distant memory and it is socially acceptable to grandstand on behalf of these poor detainees. In Wisconsin county jails search body cavaties of all prisoners on work release upon their return from work. These are not terrorists or even convicted felons. Get over it people and take a lesson from Israel if you want a secure country.

12. Posted by kay sieveding - 1 month, 1 week, 5 days, 1 hour, 24 minutes ago

    I read that lawsuits related to prisoners and the falsely accused are under litigated.  The high incarceration rates of the U.S. are scary. The U.N. covenant includes quite a bit about the rights of prisoners. The U.S. endorsed the U.N. covenant. I think everything in the U.N. covenant should be part of U.S. law and that it should be quoted in briefs.

13. Posted by Realist - 1 month, 1 week, 5 days, 1 hour, 17 minutes ago

    Good thinking, Kay (#12)!  Maybe we should allow the general world population to vote in our elections too.  The last time I checked, the U.S. was a sovereign nation.  Let the diplomats spin their wheels on the east side of Manhattan while the U.S. government and its citizens take care of business without the endless input we receive from foreign lands that convey nothing but criticism and derision in echange for financial aid and disaster relief.  Good thinking, Kay!

14. Posted by Ben - 1 month, 1 week, 5 days, 1 hour, 12 minutes ago

    Maybe Remes is right.  Instead of solitary, we should put them all in a big room with showers and wi-fi access.  They can wash up before they hit the buffet line.

15. Posted by J.D. - 1 month, 1 week, 5 days, 34 minutes ago

    ^^^ Kay, the high incarceration rates in the U.S. that you find “scary” are a direct result of us having laws and law enforcement.

    If you don’t want to live in a country with high incarceration rates, I suggest you move to the Middle East. Instead of locking you up for stealing, they’ll just cut your hand off. NO INCARCERATION NEEDED! :)

    And if you get raped, well, they’ll just stone you to death in a public forum and let your rapist go free. NO INCARCERATION!

    Is that really what you want? I hope not.

16. Posted by jodi - 1 month, 1 week, 4 days, 22 hours, 24 minutes ago

    I really hope that most of the commenters here are not actually lawyers. Regardless of what one thinks about Mr. Remes’ pants-dropping tactic, treatment of prisoners—at Guantanamo or otherwise—is not something to be flip about.  In fact, even if one thinks multiple daily strip searches are appropriate for a facility such as Guantanamo, which may be true although it certainly seems a bit excessive given the high security and the fact that these prisoners are kept in solitary confinement and don’t have access to any contraband, could we please drop the pseudo-patriotic, presumed-guilty posturing? Strip searches are humiliating, and if used for the purpose of humiliation rather than security, probably are inappropriate. Remember also that virtually none of the Guantanamo detainees have actually been charged with any crime. They are suspects who have been held for years. Even if they were duly convicted prisoners, however, we should not be so flippant about the treatment of fellow human beings.  Respond logically by stating the reasons why these searches are necessary and appropriate?  Sure. Dismiss the detainees’ complaints by saying they deserve whatever they get?  That’s not the America I love.

17. Posted by Native New Yorker - 1 month, 1 week, 4 days, 22 hours, 23 minutes ago

    With a Special Note to JD:  Someone “charged” or “suspected” or “being held” but not convicted is “an innocent person”, at least until proven guilty.  I Certainly think if JD had been a man standing around in the wrong place the day the prisoners were picked up, he would agree.  But then again JD appears to be of limited knowledge of what American and Middle Eastern jurisprudence actually is.  Some rapists and thieves go free in this country as well as other nations; and sometimes the guilty are punished.  It’s always easy to sit in an air-conditioned office with securiy in the lobby and reliable trains to get back and forth to a suburban enclave and point a finger at others who are “suspected” of a crime, based on what this government and/or the media tells you.  Note to everyone else who is convinced “My country right or wrong (even if we have to torture)”: The real terrorists in this country are the gangs and the drug dealers.  Most cops fear the MS13 who make many of those in Guantanamo look like boy scouts. Even the guilty in Guantanamo, who should be punished, would admit to fighting as soliders in a war-like situation.  Gangs kill just to kill.

18. Posted by J.D. - 1 month, 1 week, 4 days, 20 hours, 41 minutes ago

    ^ I’m not sure if you read my posts, NNY, because you’re responding to arguments that I never made. If you had discussed either pants-dropping or incarceration rates, then we’d be somewhere…

    As for MS-13, you’re absolutely right. They are the most violent criminal enterprise in the U.S. and have put the Mafia to shame. They do terrorize our communities, particularly our immigrant communities.

    Of course, nearly all MS-13 members are illegal aliens, which means that basic enforcement of immigration laws would go far in reducing their threat. Unfortunately, the same people who cry about jihadists being relocated from Afghanistan to Cuba are decrying any and all efforts at immigration enforcement (which, by the way, would likely result in terrorists being picked up as well).

    Even the recent “it’s not an amnesty” amnesty had a SPECIFIC CLAUSE in it just for illegal alien gang members who wanted amnesty. They had to “pledge” not to continue being part of the gang. What a joke! We would have facilitated the growth of MS-13 even more. And background checks for these individuals will never work. They’re transient, use multiple aliases, and our criminal databases are not nearly up to snuff.

    Enforce immigration laws, reduce terrorism from both jihadists and gang members.

    Unfortunately, the ABA continues to advocate mass illegal alien amnesty.

19. Posted by William - 1 month, 1 week, 4 days, 19 hours, 30 minutes ago

    I’m frankly ashamed to be an American with the torture and humiliation we have forced on prisoners, both domestically and in the so-called war on terror.  It seems to me the war on terror is really a war on civil liberties, the rule of law, and the Constitution. 

    I continue to support and defend the Constitution, but I’m beginning to believe that’s become “quaint” for far to many lawyers.  What’s left to defend about the world’s largest terrorist nation, the United States of America?
    
    Yeah, I know many of you actually believe the lives of the innocent men, women, and children who have been killed by us in this stupid war are worth less than American lives.  Well I say they’re the victims of American terrorism.  The American military, acting on orders from our so-called leaders, have killed at the very least 100 to 1 more innocent civilians than the attack on 9/11.  When will it be enough for our blood-thirsty Stalinist leadership?

    I’d like to see the International Criminal Court indict American political leadership for their continuing criminal acts.  I don’t care whether we submitted to their jurisdiction or not.  My respect for American acts and leadership is no longer automatic, it has to be earned.  And nothing I’ve seen in years deserves my respect or support.

    I greatly respect those ABA lawyers who have taken on the pro-bono defense of so many of the illegally detained and tortured people at Guantanamo and elsewhere.  They are the true American heros in this sordid disgusting mess.

20. Posted by Michael - 1 month, 1 week, 4 days, 13 hours, 22 minutes ago

    William (#19) and Jodi (#16), there is a big distinction between what you both essentially allege (i.e., that the great debate is between “civil liberties” and “Stalinist” political oppression being forced on detainees) and the issue that you both mistakenly read as misplaced and blind patriotism.  The fact is that our nation and our world changed drastically 7 years ago and we still haven’t found the proper balance as to how it should be handled.  Are people innocent until proven guilty?  Yes, but we have had many struggles defining who and when should be afforded the rights we grant American citizens on American soil.  The nature of the threat we face as a nation works differently from anything we have ever encountered.  I view it as healthy to have the far extremes battle it out in the public eye.  But let’s not mistake this struggle for what it is - a struggle to figure out how we can balance our security against the civil or human rights of foreigners we believe may be involved in terrorist activities that directly effect us all.  This is not patriot versus Greenpeace.  It is a struggle to come up with a fair plan that allows us to protect our national security interests while simultaneously affording suspected terrorists with the civil and human rights to which they are entitled.  Jodi - please reconsider asking whether the “patriots” are lawyers.  This suggests that your ideals are somehow more valid than mine.  I am indeed a lawyer.  I am of the belief that the detention procedures are not perfect.  However, I am not so arrogant as to believe that charging or freeing everyone is the best way to handle things.  There is highly sensitive and classified information out there which is the basis for detaining many of these detainees.  I concur with a policy that permits our government to pursue leads gathered by intelligence sources to the end that ultimately the truth will be discovered.  Furthermore, I absolutely hope that we find a middle ground in the very near future.  However, I at least admit to myself and others that my way may not be the best way, but it is not any single person’s fault that we are where we are.  Had terrorist activities not been initiated in 1993 and 2001, our lives would be different right now.  Presidents, cabinet members, Pentagon officials and enlisted military personnel alike are all just trying to protect our nation against another hideous attack.  To that end, let’s all contribute with meaningful debate instead of making it right versus left and then questioning whether our colleagues are truly lawyers.

21. Posted by kay sieverding - 1 month, 1 week, 3 days, 22 hours, 2 minutes ago

    I personally believe that many prisoners in U.S. jails and prisons are totally innocent, or are innocent of any charge that international law would recognize as a crime. 

    I personally was held 3 times totally 5 months without charges, even of “mouthing off” or otherwise disrupting a hearing.  The docket reports for these are D of Colorado civil 02-1950 and D of W. WI 3:06-mj-00019.  As you can see the first one is a civil docket.  The second one is listed as a criminal docket but “highest offense level opening is “none”, complaints is “none”, highest offense level terminated is “none”.  On 5/11/07 it shows “ctrm. Min. inn app. Deft. Detained, committed to district of CO” and dockets 1 and 7 are “warrant of arrest from District of CO”.  I was a political prisoner.

    I asked a guard in Dane County whether he thought there were innocent people there and he said that 15 years ago he would have said no but now he would say yes because of plea-bargaining.

    In Georgetown County jail in CO, I met a woman who was accused by her ex boyfriend of taking cash and tools.  She showed me all her paperwork. I tried to help her but I was unsuccessful.  Her boyfriend was a long distance truck driver.  She swore to me that she was innocent.  She was not found in possession of his tools nor was she found to have spent any significant amount of cash or in possession of any cash.  There was absolutely no evidence that she stole from him, nor beyond his statement, that he was even robbed. 

    Her bail was set at $10,000, which she had no ability to raise.  Her car was impounded. It was not searched. She was told she would have to pay $500 to have her car searched but she didn’t have the money.  Her public defender advised her that she would be found guilty because the jury would think she was guilty because she couldn’t bail out and because they had someone who would testify that when she lived with her ex boyfriend their place was messy. I found a S.C. case in American Jurisprudence that says that you can’t be tried without at least some evidence and I helped her write to the Co Attorney Reg Counsel to complain that she was being tried without any evidence.  That just made her P.D. mad.  He arranged for her to plea bargain to time served (5 months) plus parole, which meant that she pled guilty to something she didn’t do.  She said he told her that if she complained she would be tried for perjury, for accepting the plea bargain.

    Another woman was there for 5 days for not timely renewing her car registration. Her daughter had cancer and she couldn’t raise bail.

    In Georgetown the minimum bail was $400, there was no local bail bondsman, and they wouldn’t accept out of state collateral. You also could not use as bail any cash in your possession when you were arrested. Most of the locals were only making $7/hour so the minimum bail was well over one week’s income for most people. Then, once they were detained they were fired for missing work.

    I only interacted w women prisoners but I was not finding many prisoners I would describe as “criminals” as the word is commonly understood.  One woman was there for 6 months on the charge that she didn’t turn in her son for dealing. She had no criminal record of her own.  That is a crime, but a common crime in today’s society. For instance, I read in a newspaper advice column, that neighbors should not report dealers unless they are dealing to children. 

    I wouldn’t have suspected this situation if I hadn’t seen and heard it with my own eyes and ears. I have some of the womens’ names still if anyone wants to confirm my account.

    As far as enemy combatants, my understanding is that the way to get military secrets from them is to co-opt them.  If I were the decision maker, I would have held them in comfortable circumstances and tried to convince them that the U.S.A. is totally committed to democracy everywhere.  Maybe they would have even sent word to their friends to surrender.  Maybe they could have been used for a crew, for work we were paying for anyway, and money could have been saved.

22. Posted by Michael - 1 month, 1 week, 2 days, 31 minutes ago

    Kay, this article relates to detainees in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.  Ninety percent of your comments are discussing alleged injustices by state or local officials in Colorado while you were sharing a cell with inmates.  The detainees in Cuba are guarded by U.S. military personnel.  Which of these things is not like the other?

23. Posted by Kay Sieverding - 1 month, 1 week, 1 day, 16 hours, 24 minutes ago

    Whether it is foreign nationals that are detained or U.S. citizens, there is supposed to be a public purpose for both the detentions and personal invasions during the detentions.